The Debate

- The conversation continues when evolutionary science and creationism collide in Monica Long Ross' and Clayton Brown's short film, "The Debate."

- Evolution is the fundamental idea in all of life science, in all of biology.

Once in a while, I get people that really, or that claim, they don't believe in evolution.

And my response, generally, is, "Why not?

Really, why not?"

Your world just becomes fantastically complicated.

- Recently, a YouTube video featuring a person called Bill Nye the Science Guy received millions of views.

Now, the video was called "Creationism is Inappropriate for Children".

- And I say to the grown-ups, "If you want to deny evolution and live in your world "that is completely inconsistent with everything "we observe in the universe, that's fine.

"But don't make your kids do it, because we need them.

- Bill Nye also has an agenda to teach children not to believe in God, to teach them they're the result of evolutionary processes, that they came from slime over millions of years.

- And so one thing led to another, and this notorious or well-known creationist asked me to debate him.

I said, "Okay."

- It is an event that has the world talking and is trending on Twitter.

- Tickets sold out in two minutes.

- I presume we will shake hands the way boxers do before they go at it.

- Well, we are just under four hours from the debate.

- A lot of people walking in behind us.

It's gonna be a sold-out crowd.

- At the Creation Museum, a place that has been ridiculed as a high-tech delivery mechanism for pseudoscience.

- So, Bill Nye, I love you and all, like, really love you, but are you sure debating a creationist is a good idea?

I'm not.

- Not everybody is in your camp on this, even on the evolution side.

"Bill Nye is not really an expert on evolution.

"Being really, really pro-science "and science education is not enough.

"When they went in after Osama Bin Laden, "they did not send people who were really, "really against terrorism.

They sent in SEAL Team Six."

- I'm not going in really is a scientist.

I'm going in as a reasonable man.

I want to show people that this belief is still among us.

- The reason I engage instead of ignoring is because of the young people, students.

These kids are gonna grow up with all of this conflict about the fundamental idea in all of biology, evolution, and they are not gonna be as good at being physicians or physicists or voters or taxpayers.

- Charles Darwin, on December 28, 1831-- he got on this boat, a discovery...

Almost every time I would teach introductory biology, when I get to the evolution part, there would be a student coming up and asking if I was going to give equal time, "When are you going to get to creationism?

I don't see that on the syllabus."

That's a pretty regular comment.

In many cases, these biology teachers, just not to cause a fuss, will downplay evolution, skip the topic.

That's common.

This is why probably 25% of the students come in and say their biology teacher didn't teach evolution.

It's not if this controversy is going to appear in your classroom, it's just when.

About 1 out of 7 or 1 out of 6 of biology majors who graduate are creationists.

They presumably learned about evolution, and they simply rejected it.

They don't believe us.

They reject it.

They reject the evidence.

That's why they teach creationism in their schools.

It's very common.

It's biology's dirty little secret.

- Two of our scientists here at the Creation Museum, Dr. Georgia Purdom, who has a PhD in molecular genetics, and Dr. David Menton, who has a PhD in biology, have also put up a YouTube video dealing with some of the statements that Bill Nye has made.

- I will say, if you want to record this, they are helpless as scientists, and their peer review where they hand each other the paper and say it's been peer-reviewed is an embarrassment.

- The scripture doesn't need anything other than itself because it is the ultimate authority and it is true, so therefore whatever it says is true because it's, you know, the word of God.

But because it's true, we would expect science to be consistent with it and confirm it.

And it does.

- It's very much like if I had a bow and arrow, I shoot the arrow, and it sticks in a tree.

I then go and draw a target around the arrow.

I hit the bullseye.

The bullseye was predetermined by my religious faith, not by evidence, but untestable religious faith.

They can call it creation science.

The courts reject that.

There is no science to it.

None.

But it sounds good to call it that.

It kind of gives people this false assurance that "I'm in the modern world too.

I'm not anti-science."

Of course it is.

They're entitled to their own opinions.

They're not entitled to their own facts.

- I think ignoring the creationists has not been effective.

This is why I fight the fight.

- Good evening.

I am pleased to welcome you to Legacy Hall of the Creation Museum in Northern Kentucky in the metropolitan area of Cincinnati.

I'm Tom Foreman, from CNN, and I am pleased to be tonight's moderator for this evolution versus creationism debate.

Is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era?

- Now, Mr. Ham and his followers have this remarkable view of a worldwide flood that somehow influenced everything that we observe in nature.

You'll hear a lot about the Grand Canyon, I imagine, also, which is a remarkable place, and it has fossils.

And the fossils in the Grand Canyon are found in layers.

There is not a single place in the Grand Canyon where the fossils of one type of animal cross over into the fossils of another.

In other words, when there is a big flood on the earth, you would expect drowning animals to swim up to a higher level.

Not any one of them did.

Not a single one.

If you could find evidence of that, my friends, you could change the world.

- If Bill Nye and I went to the Grand Canyon, we could agree that that is a Coconino sandstone and the Hermit shale, and there's the boundary.

They're sitting, one on top of the other.

We can agree on that.

I mean, we could even analyze the minerals and agree on that, but we would disagree on how long it took to get there.

But see, none of us saw the sandstone or the shale being laid down.

There's a supposed 10-million-year gap there.

But I don't see a gap.

But see, there's a difference between what you actually observe directly and then your interpretation in regard to the past.

- If you accept an old Earth, it undermines Christianity and destroys the church.

Do you want to be involved in destroying the church?

When it's posed that way to people and they make this a stark choice, that appeals at an emotional level to many people.

- What, if anything, would ever change your mind?

- Well, the answer to that question is, I'm a Christian.

And as far as the word of God is concerned, no.

No one is ever gonna convince me that the word of God is not true.

- Mr. Nye?

- We would just need one piece of evidence.

We would need the fossil that swam from one layer to another.

We would need evidence that the universe is not expanding.

We would need evidence that the stars appear to be far away, but they're not.

We would need evidence that rock layers can somehow form in just 4,000 years instead of the extraordinary amount.

We would need evidence that somehow you can reset atomic clocks and keep neutrons from becoming protons.

Bring on any of those things, and you would change me immediately.

- Thanks so much to Mr. Nye and to Mr. Ham for an excellent discussion.

[applause] - I won't deny, Bill Nye had some really good points in his arguments, but ultimately, I think Ken Ham had the higher argument in his goal.

- It was really close.

He kept making great points and everything, but Ken Ham, I think, won after all.

- I definitely believe more of what Ken Ham said.

I'm a creationist, so-- but I mean, it gets me thinking.

Critical thinking is always good, so, I mean, I enjoyed the debate.

- I was more satisfied by Ken Ham's answers, but I am a creationist, but I'm also a lifelong fan of Bill Nye, so I'm kind of-- I was interested to hear both sides.

- We surveyed thousands of students here.

We don't know the exact reason, but if a student is taught creationism in high school, there is a lingering impact of that.

- I just can't accept that we're all pointless collections of matter wandering the universe.

I mean, as C.S.

Lewis said, "If there is no meaning to life, then why are we wondering what the meaning to life is?"

- When you start seeing tenets of young Earth creationism applied as a reason for rejecting climate change, that's a problem.

- A large group of scientists agree... [laughter] When you hear that, you know you got a lie coming.

[laughter] Man is not the enemy of nature, he is the steward of nature, and God gave him this planet to use up.

The Earth is not a fragile ecosystem billions of years old and held together by random chance.

It is a strong, robust system held together by God.

- The teaching of creationism is alive and well.

There is simply no stopping it, I don't think.

- What should biologists be doing?

- Teach evolution.

Unapologetically, teach it well, teach evolution.

[laughs] Can I get an amen?

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