Funding for this program is provided by the Community Foundation of Greater Chattanooga.

And Grandview Foundation.

To begin today, we're going to start with our panel is kind of coming to thinking about the main theme of this documentary, which is that people can look at the same thing and see two very different understandings two very different histories.

And in our nation, we have two quite different interpretations of our past, particularly around the Confederacy.

So we're going to start with the first clip that talks about where these two understandings of our history diverge.

And then we're going to begin discussing what that divergence can mean for us I'll admit I've spent exactly zero minutes thinking about the grief of the Confederacy of slavers, but I've also never considered how else you would memorialize that many missing soldiers.

At that point, America as a whole has never experience this level of death, loss, destruction ever.

It would be akin today of us losing roughly 8 million soldiers and a four year span.

So yeah, people are traumatized north and south.

Now for the White South, what remains are the women who've lost husbands, they've lost fathers, they've lost brothers, they've lost sons.

There's this need to make what happened.

Make all of this death and destruction means something.

To find meaning in a losing army that went all in on slavery.

You'd have to write like a whole new story, and that is exactly what white southerners did.

The story they invented after the war is called the lost cause.

The lost causes an entire mythology around the former Confederacy.

It's a false narrative about the Confederacy, about th Old South, about reconstruction, about the Ku Klux Klan.

They know that northerners are writing histories of the Civil War, and they're very concerned that if they don't get a handle on it and produce their own history, then the history will make their ancestors look bad.

Some of the primary truths are that the war wasn't fought over slavery, that we went to war to defend the 10th Amendment to the Constitution, which is about preserving states' rights to own human, to own human beings and masters of slaves were benevolent.

It's a way to change the narrative of defeat to one of celebration and honor.

Most of the mysteries of the world were caused by wars.

And when the wars were over.

No one ever knew what they were about, and the lost cause is really quite a lovely story, isn't it, that we were this genteel, extraordinary society and that we as the superior race were able to take care of everything and everybody and anybody that says that this is not who we truly are really doesn't understand the elegance of the South.

It's a beautiful story.

It's just not true.

It simply isn't true.

So this first clip shows us that within our nation, we have a division between those of us who see this period of our past and the remembrance of it as one of heritage, while for others another large portion of our population looking at a remembrance of this past as a reflection of hate.

And this becomes a difficult way for us to come together.

So what we're going to be looking at tonight, in particular, because there's so much from the documentary we could be discussing, is thinking about the way in which monuments and art can possibly allow us to have conversations with each other, even when there's these fundamental disagreements over what that meaning of their past is.

So we're going to look at a second clip, and that's the one we're going to ask you to discuss.

And in this second clip, we're going to be thinking abou our willingness to hear each other's points of views and the limitations in our abilities to do so.

And what is the role that remembrance and art and monuments can play in helping us have those conversations?

What do you think now?

What did you what did you expect?

I got to be honest, I am nervous every time I, I enter.

Land where there's a lot of Confederate flags.

I'm always nervous because when you're a person of color and you see a Confederate flag, you don't know why the person flies it.

And sometimes you encounter people who call you at the gas station, and that's why they fly.

Yeah.

And other times you encounter someone who gives you coffee and a honey bun and outfits you and puts you up for the weekend.

So as a person of color, we don't have space to assume the best.

You've joined in to see things, from our perspective, more or less, although.

What could we possibly join in with you to see from your perspective, the jazz fest or something like that?

What could we do?

We could all go to a slavery museum.

No, there's too much.

I would never step foot on that.

You talked about that plantation.

Yeah, that's so much fake crap on that thing.

That's such a that place.

So sending this to our panelist, how do we have these kinds of common conversations when we have such fundamental disagreements over what we're talking about?

Are there places in our society thinking about art and monuments where those conversations are possible?

Where could he invite someone to come?

Or could the filmmaker invite one of these men to come with him to see his point of view that he would be willing to join him?

I'll let you volunteer, I won't call on.

It seems like that the invitation was already put out there, but it was rejected.

So the question is where can we go?

It's up to each individual to decide if they want to be a part of that journey.

We have to, in our society, reeducate the way we think about things, but we've been told we've come a long way in the sense of more information being out there.

So you don't have to take a long trip to a particular place to find information.

So it's really when are we willing to let our pasts lie and reexamine it and then have that conversation?

Others, we were actually discussing that exact clip right before we sat down, and that was a section of the film that really struck me because it's this moment that you realize that there is nothing harder to shift than one's belief systems.

Like once you've come to believe something is true, there's facts and there's learning and there's opinions.

But once you've embedded yourself that something is absolutely true and everything around you supports that belief.

So this idea of the lost cause, this idea of a glorified south.

And this purpose of heritage, once you've embedded that within yourself to have someone challenge you and say this isn't true or there's more to this story, you feel like your entire belief system is being attacked.

And that's where we see this resistance and this anger and a rise of this sort of push against facts and push against other people's truths, because that would mean to have to let go of one's own beliefs.

And people don't want to do that.

They don't want to believe that what they believe is true.

And so that, I think, is the real challenge with building these.

The information is there, the facts are there.

These monuments on both sides exist and the fallacies of monuments exists and has been proven.

But if people don't even want to see that because that would have to admit a falsity of themselves, then that's where we run into these people that say no because the offer was on the table and they had a perfect place available within in this documentary that they could have gone to the slave museum.

And the fact that the person would say absolutely not.

That's not true.

That says more about what he's willing to face within himself than the facts that are out there.

So is there a role that art and monuments can play in helping us find common space?

Are we talking about creating something new?

Does it already exist where we can come with these different perspectives and actually have a conversation?

Because he didn't even suggest a particular slavery museum, right?

He just said a slavery museum and immediately went to a particular location.

So, you know, do we have those places in our community or what would that kind of place look like?

It's very rare to see that type of place.

I was thinking about, we don't have counter monuments to those monuments.

And I was thinking about, you know, I have a couple of close friends who saw the thing like that.

Yeah.

And what I've found is that it's difficult to convince people of anything.

But when you get to know a person that opens the door, so there's always, you know, we're all human beings.

So there's some common ground somewhere where people can get to know each other and start a dialog.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you're not trying to convince me.

But now, since we're not trying to convince each other, we can hear each other.

And Charlie, you stated and announced the power of human relationship.

And Chris, you talked about the challenge of one's identity, becomes synched up with myths and the entire framework of the world actually links it together.

And I'm curious what you think of someone who works with the human mind in the way that you do about the challenge of when something becomes wedded to a person's identity and when that's under threat?

How do we tend to respond?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, to directly answer your question, how do we tend to respond?

We tend to respond with a guarded this like and that happens on a molecular level before it happens on a conscious level So like our bodies will immediat in.

And so I think what we're what your question is looking for is we're looking for where do we find a place where we can develop that empathetic skill, that sensitivity and softness to be open to another person's humanity and their experience, right?

And to do that, we have to at some point come to an agreement that all of the rhetoric, the symbolic language that we're throwing out and putting out as that sort of you know, scaffolded protective wall that we build around ourselves in our communities is not actually going to help us be able to get to that place of sensitivity and tenderness and empathy.

So I mean, I'm I'm thinking, where do we start?

We start in pre-K, you know, like we we have to have it embedded.

In every aspect of all the systems, all of the places so that we can develop, it's not an easy skill to develop, right?

And Dr. Jackson, you teach these subjects and you teach to student bodies who I know as I do come in with very different understandings of the past who've been socialized in very different ways.

How are you able to help them find those kinds of common grounds?

Well, I think one of the things is helpful is having a person of color as their instructor.

one of the things it's really interesting throughout my graduate career and even as a professor at Covenant.

Many of these students have never had a person of colo as an instructor.

So to see that this is somebody who's competent, who's knowledgeable is really helpful and because they have so many sort of preconceived ideas.

And I think it deals with proximity.

There's very, oftentimes very little proximity for a number of individuals to people of color.

And so I think that's helpful.

And I mean, there's some people I cannot reach, so I don't sort of put that burden on myself.

But I think for a lot of students, it is the readings that we do have, the understanding that, you know, exposing them to things that are difficult parts of our history.

one of the things I really think it's interesting, particularly as we live in the Bible belt, is how there's a real emphasis on, you know, Christian faith and things like that.

And you know, if you look at the Bible there, the warts and all.

There's no sort of idea that we sort of whitewash it, although there's some have been people who try to do that, but sort of clean it sort of make up just the good parts.

So why do we why do people, particularly in this area, think, well, we should just focus in on the story we want to tell and tell of telling a fuller, richer story and a story that also has a hard and difficult parts of it that we, I think that are essential for us to understand.

So for me, it's exposing students to those type of thing and knowing again that I don't have the burden of trying to reach everyone because that is too much of a burden for, I think, any one person to be able to carry.

So it's a lot to fall back on what we talked about with this, the whole idea behind why this is such a big issue and why people are so wedded to it.

I think because it's family.

I mean, in the south, there is this sense of honor and pride and very much honor culture.

And I think for so many people, it's very, very personal.

And so when you bring up these issues, you're talking about their grandmother or their grandfather, and you know, that's you just, you know, so it's .

And there's you just don't do that.

You don't criticize or you know, what happened or what does that reflection of you as a person.

So I think there's so many dynamics tied to it.

But I do think it comes it's important to have those conversations and to have that proximity to one another.

And it can be complicated.

As you know, we look at society right now where we seem to think people are all good or all bad, and when they cross the line, then we will eliminate all the work they've ever done because they've behaved inappropriately.

To have that kind of nuance to say there's a lot of evil in the world and people have done horrible things who also may have done good things.

How do we develop that kind of sophistication that we can have this more complex story as a culture where your grandparents can have done horrible things and you can still love them as your grandparents?

Well, part of what I hear in your question and I know we're about to transition.

Yes, we are.

It's sort of this this thread between personal touch like this, this these notions, the fact that those folks who have been wedded into the narrative of the last calls and the first time I heard this, I was 18.

I remember vividly someone had gone to school since third grade.

We're talking about the Civil War, and he announces that it was about states' rights.

Now I was no Jon Meacham, right?

I know in history, which I don't today, but I thought to myself that seemed absurd, right?

And so but he had been in.

He had inherited this.

He didn't create it himself.

And so there's this bond of a human relationship.

The challenge of identity.

Then you describing when our bodies feel this threat like even on a molecular level.

But you also Charlie, the power relationship and you describe being in the classroom like you are in a way, as a parent, you are a chief, your physician.

There's so much that's happening in that context.

And I like you noted that many of the students haven't had an African-American teacher and so you were able to not have the full weight of their past and future on you But you know, though, that it's part of the battleground, is that the welcoming into those greater discussions?

And so your insights are so really profound and appreciate this.

Even highlighting the need for nuance and even nuance might suggest that grace is important in engaging with ourselves in the world around us.

Now onto clip three.

Are are they supposed to be terrifying or are they supposed to be inspiring?

They are supposed to be inspiring.

I don't think we have anything terrifying here.

This was the largest ever slave revolt in the US, so this is my maybe my favorite monument, it's shocking in a way that makes me very uncomfortable.

Mm-Hmm.

But I also like it.

This is my favorite place to.

Some say it is too graphic.

Some say we are not doing enough.

And you cannot talk about slavery.

And I suspect that everybody will be comfortable about it.

But the goal is not to help people be angry or feeling guilty.

The goal is to generate that spark.

In the person in order to generate consciousness.

When we tend to think of monuments in the country or certainly in the West, maybe even globally, we experience them in imagining that these massive marble structures, what we see in this clip is they're small and they are different nature in terms of terms of color, maybe even material.

So how do you think monuments functioning, being made and crafted in different ways can actually hel bring us into the kind of conversation we spoke, spoke about moments ago?

We know the Johnson Monument.

The memorial itself is only minutes from here, and so is there are tips in the Ed Johnso Memorial Monument, possibly in the mind we see at the Whitney Plantation.

Is there attempt to have a shared discussion and what might that share discussion look like?

And anyone can go first.

I was thinking a lot about how when we were talking about the way that these histories were written and these monuments were made, it tells a lot about stories of power and who was in power and who had that power.

So if you have a panel of people that are looking at asking questions, is this a good idea?

And everyone's the same.

Then they're all going to agree and they won't challenge each other when it's a group of white women deciding how to honor their loved ones who have died, they're going to choose the narrative that fits them, not the narrative of the other stories that were in place.

So when we start to see these new monuments and memorials that are sharing these stories and histories that we haven't heard or should have heard as an equa conversation, I think that's opening up the doorway to sayin this is your chance to learn and to see and to take in information that you should have known.

If you don't know it, so they provide a quiet space where people can maybe handle some of these feelings that come up for a moment with an object rather than a person who might feel more confrontational so they can have that discomfort for a moment and then hopefully go from there in a way that's productive.

So the the new monuments themselves by existing could be a portal of ushering in a walk or being a person int the conversation, both about the past which they didn't know And this this new story, which they are invited to take into themselves.

So what are some other ways we think that these new monuments can help cultivate a context where peopl can enter into some of these more complex discussions?

What I know about the clip is that the art was on a human scale.

And so it didn't read as a monument to me.

A monument takes the image of a human being or even an animal and blows it up, expands it to make it more than life more than bigger than human humanity.

And so maybe we don't need monuments.

And I was thinking also, we are actually living in a white supremacy monument.

Every time I go downtown, you know, I see monuments to white supremacy.

You know, when I don't see me, people who look like me owning, you know, and so America is a monument.

I believe this system is a type of monument.

And I think and I think last year we saw that monument, you know, clearly, you know, the capital, I'm talking about the capital of deal.

So maybe what we need to do is focus on these systems that see the art celebrates, you know, these monuments in Chattanooga and all these monuments, it actually celebrates the culture.

So we see through these monument You know, this is the culture that we live in so far has the power to invoke a sense of celebration to those who perceive it.

Is there perhaps some trick, some psychological power to the human skill art?

I'm curious as what you think about the power of the image we saw from the farm, from the plantation in the documentary versus the grand scale.

We so often see what is there power that the human in the large?

Oh, there's always a power between size.

You know, size does matter.

You know, in the sense where when a piece is created large scale, it's to celebrate, glorify.

When you look at it and you're looking up, you're kind of giving reverence to what when it's approachable, then it's you have a more human reaction.

If it is smaller, you yourself have this god like power over that when you look over.

So scale does matter, and artists create and use scal to invoke certain meanings and to certain feelings.

So in a sense of the monument that was at the plantation that I would say is a monument, but it's created in a human scale to give you that reaction of empathy and feeling, because now you have an object that is the same size or similar size to you, so you can relate to it.

Unlike something that is very large, which you're humbled by or very small that you have more power over.

Mm.

So this is the reenactment that they did later in the film of that momen that's memorialized and the art piece there is that Also, would you see that as a form of art, as a form of monument, as a form of moment, a nexus?

How how do those kinds of physical engagements impact the way we think and talk about these histories?

If I could, as a drama therapist, respond to that for a moment of, I think what's really important and what comes out so beautifully in this film is the power of play to help just open up space for learning and change in this process.

And it comes in every sort of way, even from the sort of thing that happens to remind your brain every time there may be a missed truth is in the film.

I don't know if you noticed that I noticed it.

I was like, Oh, he's so playful in the way that he's bringing it in.

It's disarming in it, and it opens us up to go, Oh, you know, maybe it's not even conscious.

That might be a mistruth.

I heard the bell again and then in the same way, putting on tha costume, embodying and trying on a new role.

I mean, it's what happens in those reenactments the Civil War re-enactors about playing and who's the good side and the bad side.

And I would really challenge that we only have a dichotomy at play.

I think there are many, many more perspectives that we're not necessarily paying attention to when we get into those role playing and enactment and trying on and and engaging dramatically with those different things, there's possibility that's expansive there.

And I think, you know, I would love to see a lot more of that capacity for people to be willing, Hey, I know you don't agree with me, but would you mind coming in and just trying on this costume for a second?

And that's it.

Like, just try it on and then tell me like what that was like, you know?

Did you did you have any new thoughts like, you know, let's let's start there and see what happens?

I've got a quick question for Dr. Jackson before we move to our next clip In your classroom, I imagine from time to time you might have a student who struggles with that old truth that they've just now learned about, and it threatens them.

How do you think they might negotiate that challenge if you brought in something physical?

Maybe it's a small piece of art.

Maybe it's a piece of garb for them to try and interact with.

How do you think a student might?

And it's something you might already do, but how do you think student engage that if they're struggling with the new truths?

It really depends.

I would say that for an African-American to wear a uniform that was a Confederate uniform, I think would be probably a real problem for them, I'm imagining.

So I just think it depends on the person in terms of their sort of ability to be able to really, yeah, just really be able because of the .

The history that's there for an individual, I think for particularly for individuals who are not of colo when they see maybe objects that are related to slavery.

I think one of the things is in and I've run this, this happened a couple of times, a there's oftentimes this feeling of guilt.

And we had a really interesting conversation as we were talking about some recent issues related to being labeled a racist.

And I think for a lot of individuals, that is something that they really want to avoid as much as possible.

So.

So if there's anything that would possibly associate them with racism, they try to avoid it as much as possible.

So I think that also feeds into why there's sometimes a reluctance to engage in some of these monuments or to really confront this history as a personal aspect of in terms of family.

But the sort of the worst thing is to be labeled as a racist.

And so I think people don't have because of that the willingness to really look at the history and really to process what happened because they're so scared that they'll be put in that category So it takes a lot of work and time, and it's one of things.

I think as a society, we really have a quick fix.

We want things to be fixed quick to do that.

Sometimes we need a little more distance to, you know, like if you take those exact symbols of those things that have, like, really entrenched meaning to them, that's not enough space.

There's not enough distance there to be able to engage with it.

Sometimes you need a little bit of an abstract version of something that helps you to get a little bit closer first, right?

And this is again, why art is so powerful in that.

And before I move on to the final to our final clip, I just want to know in part what I'm hearing, because Charlie said some things that, you know, it's like an ax into the very almost a soul to the spirit of this discussio about the fact that the nation at large or so many of the components of our city are themselves emblems to the Confederacy into white supremacy.

And so thinking back to some of what what we have said, the idea of making the kind of play available for even when kids are young so that they can begin to be able to integrate some of these more complex truths.

And so I just want to sort of honor that because that's the place in which we live.

And then how do we negotiate the challenge of the emblem in the system and how they work together?

And also recognizing, too, that there's a lot of shame can be associated with the idea of being recognized as a racist And you know, we know that if there's a problem in our lives, step one, if you want to get better is actually an admission of that very problem.

And so folks in it a problem, then where can they actually go And it's kind of a psychological moral, relational cul de sac or circle that people have to figure out ways out of that.

So now for our final clip, I'm worried.

I don't know what timeline we are on.

Are we on the timeline where historians are going to look back and remember there, that was the turning point.

They started taking down monuments.

They started questioning Confederate symbols with real persistence.

They started straightening the road where it went wrong.

Or is this time now?

Just a flash in the pan.

I have no idea.

If you if you look at sort of historical pattern.

And, you know, there's no fixed pattern to things, but we are undergoing rapid change.

We're seeing a desire by communities to see themselve in the historical narrative and accurate ways.

All of those things have a positive, but it is also disruptive.

Will it be a situation where we all back up and go, OK now let's have a real reckoning with what our past is or what we hope for for the future of the United States, or if it becomes so disruptive that new comforting myths emerge.

I don't know what happens on the back side of disruption.

I found that to be one of the most powerful statements in this film that it seems like in our lifetime, we see these moments of disruption of dissonance happening increasingly frequently, but not necessarily sustained change afterwards.

We've had this moment of disruption in our own community with the create the discussion around Ed Johnson, the creation of the monument, the many different panels and discussion we've been having in classrooms and in the community.

What's going to happen in the backside of our disruption as a community?

What do we do to keep the disruption ongoing?

But leading us to a resolution?

That's the problem when it's the big questions, right, and then asking you to give it.

Well, one thing we should not be afraid of the truth.

You know, I think it was last year, I was asked a lot of times to talk and I was like, sick of talking I don't want to talk.

I don't want to talk anymore.

And you know, honestly, I want to talk here because my artwork is here, so.

But you know, and somehow it relates because even paintings, these are types of monuments.

And but, you know, the Bible says the truth will make you free.

But most of the time we misquote the Bible and say the truth will set you free.

But knowing the truth, just knowing the truth now, then it's up to that individual what they do with it.

You know, as a person, as a human being.

I was thinking about the scene where you were talking about them reenacting the revolt, and I kept when I was watching the film, I kept thinking about like, there's a whole group of people that would watch that and be absolutely terrified and angry, but they wouldn't be able to step outside that and say, maybe that's how African-American people feel about you doing the civil rights, the Civil War reenactments like why do you not so well?

How can you see the threat on one side and not on the other?

And I think again, it's this idea of like, how do we expand, like open ourselves up to hearing both truths and not just the one that makes us feel most comfortable?

How do we allow ourselves to sit in a space of discomfort so that we can learn from it and not just allow these voices to be pervasive?

And the only way we can do that is for someone to to go through that and then stand up and each person to go through i at their own pace and keep keep expecting it.

Because now what we've seen with the Black Lives Matter movement, and that continuation is now we have critical race theory being questioned.

So it's like you see that pushback against the disruption And again, the places of power have a lot to make the decision even if it's not popular, right?

So there's that dissonance still.

We still have too many people that have places of power that don't represent what I hope is the public knowledge and the public expansion of understanding and shift of belief to be inclusive.

So the system needs to be changed, the system needs to be shifted and opened.

How we do that is still so far in progress, I hope.

Chris, in your in your comment, there's two things that stood out to me.

one is within the documentary.

The historian was talking about this concern about the possibility of there being the cultivation creation of new, comforting myths.

And right now in our country, there are men who are preparing to be soldiers in a race war that black people don't want.

And so you highlight this reckoning recognizing that folks will look upon that scene of revolt and assume this is what black folks want.

And I'm just curious.

My dear panelist, have you sensed in your world and interact with African Americans that there is this desire for some widespread destruction of that, which is America?

I haven't.

No, no.

I think that more than anything else, I think within the African-American community or people of color that the idea is living up to what America is about.

So one of the things I do when I talk in my class, when we get into talking about the reconstruction period is that, you know, African-Americans simply want what it means to be American.

They want to be fully embraced, the right to vote, the right to have a worship service and not have to get permission to have a worship service, the right to bear arms Because there are all these pieces of legislation that are put in to restrict African-Americans to participate in what it means to be an American.

So I think in terms of today, that's all that people, that's what people want.

So what it means?

Let let's leave that out.

And I think and regard to your earlier question, I think the understanding that we can not as a nation, we can't move forward unless we hold on and we in we deal with these issues because I think of a lot of people after George Floyd and that everything of 20, 20, you know, people just sort of felt like they they could walk away.

African-Americans can't walk away.

We deal with this day in and day out.

So understand that it's not a luxury that people can take.

We're in this together.

So the giraffe, the disruption itself is not changed.

And often there's the sense that when the disruption occurs, we've accomplished something.

And so we can go back to some status quo instead of asking again, what is on that back side?

What do we do to keep the change in progress occur?

And that means with being uncomfortable and dealing with uncomfortable topics?

You know, I when I learned about the Holocaust, so I teach about the Holocaust, I feel I mean, I grieve inside.

I have no connection with that, really, but I grieve There's nothing wrong with that.

And I think that we have to be willing to be uncomfortable and grieve together.

Yes, exactly.

Exactly.

I think what you were saying earlier about this sense of guilt, you know, people taking on this sense of guilt.

So when we're grieving, but then we also have guilt, and that's where those counter narratives come in to protect our, you know, those that want to protect yourself want to protect.

And it's so one sided and unfair, and I can see how students and many people grapple with that.

How do you grieve and process your own guilt of uncomfortability is the key.

And we have to understand that in our time that the monuments that are around was erected during a past time with a specific purpose, you know, during reconstruction, it was for memorialization.

After that you have, during the time of the Klan is to create an actual weapon on every corner so that people can remember to stay in their place.

Our society, we change and we have to change, and the symbols have to change as we change.

So it's understandable.

In the past, the people that had the power wanted pieces to look like them.

That's how things work with power.

But we're at a different time, in a different space, as a society, as a current America, not a past America.

And we have to change and change and reinvent and reanalyze the symbols and which parts of those symbol are allowed to continue for the growth of our nation to continue.

Otherwise, we're just going to keep repeating the past.

Yeah, I think what we're asking for is the decolonization of America.

And, you know, bringing those symbols in those monuments down is cathartic.

But for that decolonization process to continue, we have to have more than catharsis.

We have to have some integration of ideas and some rehearsal and practice of those ideas and some trial and error of those new ideas because that the colonized minds and hearts and perspectives that are on autopilot will take time.

And I think the catharsis is an important part, but it's not the only part where there's something about history, though the history of civilization.

You know, there's like a precipice.

And and when a culture reaches a certain precipice, then something different is going to happen.

Now, 600 years is long enough to discuss this.

I mean, we have nothing to discuss after hundreds of years about the humanity of people who look like me.

Whether we discussing the art reflects the culture, the art won't change because the culture hasn't changed.

The art can't change until the culture change.

That's the truth.

The opening question was about what do we do on the backside on the aftermath of the disruption?

And I find that as I sit here, I actually feel disturbed.

I feel disrupted inside.

I am so not conflicted, but it's a reframing, a reinstatement of a bit about how far we've come, that truly how far we really have to go as a country and very grateful for all the the audience being present with us in the midst of this really remarkable discussion as we talked about the clips in the film, and now they have been writing down questions along the way and the microphone is open for our guests to come and pose a question to our panelist.

My name is Mike Hemsley and.

History is always written by the winners.

Right now in a lot of this country, the winners are Re Trump Lecons who are pushing the nonsense of critical race theory in order to keep the truth from being told in our history, do we have to wait until what, whatever year it will be when we become a minority majority country in order to be able to tell the truth and our history?

So given the current pushback, this new weapon, the weaponization of something that you might learn in law school, you might.

Critical race theory as it further pushes back on the progress that have been made with a deeper, more compelling, true retelling of American history.

How long might we have to wait as a nation to deal with our past as it was?

I think I'm grateful that we have the amazing tool of social media where people can push back to their peers and push back to one another, I mean, there's a there's a double edged sword in that, of course, but I think that's a start in some ways.

At least there's an opportunity for everyday people to have a public forum.

And again, that goes a lot of different directions.

But I think there is a power in young people who are able to make their voices heard in ways that are heard and are listened to.

That then can help generate that kind of momentum.

And that and we've seen that, we've seen young people come forward on these public platforms and create movements, and I hold a lot of faith in that.

I have a lot of hope in that the listening to one another.

I am outside of the spaces where people refuse to hear.

Well, I would say it's important to keep telling the truth and telling those stories, I think the documentary is phenomenal and the sense it is all grounded in historical evidence.

I mean, it's you have Alexander Stephens, I mean, the cornerstone speech.

I mean, this is him saying this.

So there can be a push back into telling these stories or telling these truths.

But you can't get around the fact that they are truth and they're not held in a box somewhere where no one has access to them .

And in terms of thinking about social media, I mean, they're they're they're books that are written.

I mean, you can't get away from it, which is why I think there is such a push to sort of restrict these things so people don't have as much access.

But in many ways, I think it's it's out of the box already, it's out there.

That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some challenges.

But I think one of the things is to me is so tragic is that you have librarians and teachers who are fearful about teaching American history And I keep thinking, what year are we in?

Is this 2020 to that where there is a fear of it's not indoctrinated and indoctrination, it's just purely laying the facts out.

So I think we just have to continue to be truth tellers and learn from the history about what can happen if we don't tell those truths and librarians and teachers in our city, our county, our state, throughout the country that feel these various tensions are talking about that which is already escaped the past.

These things of self evident to so many folks have been documented and the power to continue to tell the truth through the means of social media.

Any other thoughts on this challenge of this press, upon creating new myths about critical race theory, is which someone might learn in law school.

But so if you actually do, how long might we have to may have to wait til we can more deeply integrate these truths in our nation?

Do you see a pushback like this?

They're pushing against something, right?

We pass laws to challenge the things we're afraid of, not necessarily what's actually happening with the people in power or fear.

So I think it's significant.

We're seeing those laws right now on the back side of the disruption because the response to disruption isn't necessarily some kind of transition to something new.

It can also be just another challenge against the larger monolith that has always been there.

Yeah, it's a it's an interesting question, but what do you think might be the fear that's really behind the push of these new laws over fears of loss of power?

It's just basic.

Everything is all based on power.

Who has and who does not.

You know whose symbol is the who's symbol gets promoted, which one does not, whose heritage is important and whose heritage is not so is is basic.

You know, the art of war in a sense.

You know, the, as Mike stated, the victor rights.

And we're at a time that those who were seen as victors that wrote are have created a society that is not only them.

Now, the victors have to deal with that because they've also created ways for those that they've excluded to understand.

So we are in a crisis, in a sense or not, we.

But there are people that are in a crisis because no what was once secret and quiet and was only known to a few?

Everybody knows and they have questions, and those questions treat the questions that they do not want to have i those conversations.

So the hidden the hidden stories of the plantation and Jim Crow has integrated themselves more deeply into American life.

There's this deep sense of a loss of power, and fear is motivating this.

And you use this striking verbiage of the of the of the art of war and Dr. Jackson referred to earlier in reference to largely speaking to people of color when this violent overthrow of the country.

But you said, no, we just want to be Americans.

We want the country to live up to this its stated ideals.

So if?

If if it's true that there are those who are afraid and are pushing back strongly and it's true tha folks of color generally just want the country to live u to its stated ideals, and it's true that people carry both guilt and grief.

How do people bring together and accept the fact that they were the symbols of the victors Now the victims have voices to speak as I viewed some of the discussions on book banning in our community.

I see this comically challenged and intense discussions.

But in essence, how does the Lion lie down with the lamb?

How do we not afar?

But how do we in our own county speak of folks who are afraid of a loss of power when no one's trying to take their world from them?

We just want the country to live as it to be how it described itself to be.

I'd like to bring in another quote from an article by authors Griffith and Sid Lowe.

The title I love is art, anti-racism and health equity in quotes.

Don't ask me why.

Ask me how you know who that's quoting, right?

Tupac, right?

OK, so the quote that I pulled out is art has been at the core of efforts to express emotion, communicate difficult concepts, spur action and change what seems impossible.

And we've seen it throughout history.

We've seen art make change and stick and engag people and make them curious and give them courage.

So I believe not just because it's my profession, but because I see it and I feel it that art is what is helping us.

It is.

It is the the, you know, helper, the nurse that's that's taking us through this time.

It's art over war.

The invitation into that our mike is still open for any of our bold guests to come up and to express question comment.

Hey, I'm Josiah Golson.

This is a quick question as a follow up.

If.

If the if the old spaces that that government that our governments have erected and built that are now being contested and challenged and brought down in some cases failed to tell our history as we should know it.

And the current public spaces that we exist in that our kids are in school and that we that we study in are also being contested from an accurate history being presented in the full story being told.

What are alternative spaces looking like and what made engagements with our real history in all its complexity in those spaces look like things.

Might look like an art studio.

I would say, I think it means that you have to take ownership if you particularly a parent.

I think in the African-American community, that's what we had to do.

And so I grew up hearing stories from my grandparents telling me about the Klan walking, you know, coming through their community in South Georgia.

So they had to go out in the woods in the middle of the night because they were afraid of the Klan attacking them.

I grew up hearing stories about black young boys being lynched.

And I think that it is important to tell those hard stories, even though there's so much trauma attached to it.

But also tell the stories of resilience, which is why I think it's so important to tell those hard stories.

So, for example, my grandmother would they were her and her father.

I mean, her and her husband, rather my grandparents were sharecroppers.

And so I would call her every Sunday afternoon and I'd tell her about something I was going through and she like, You know what?

But you can do it.

You can do it because I did it.

Your grandfather and I, we worked hard, we did, and we can do it.

So it gave me strength, and I think we have to tell those hard stories, but also those stories of resilience.

In order to empower our communities to, we have to take ownership, whether it be African-American community, to other communities saying, OK, we're not going to let this sort of event that happen and we're going to walk away .

We're going to tell the story of individuals, whether it be Ruby Bridges or whoever who did these things So we have a broader understanding.

So it means that you may have to do a little work well, and it's understanding that one person did not come in and solve things raised it.

These were always, always have been community movements of people joining together who you wouldn't have expected to join together to challenge and to change.

But if we tell the story as a series of oppressions as opposed to this ongoing oppression and resistance together with power is the backdrop.

Political scientist I'm with you have powers in the backdrop Then we start looking at this new narrative and I have to be honest, that's what fascinates me the most is that right now we have these two competing narratives.

And the reality is there is a new narrative, a new American history that we're seeing pieces of.

And it is it has triumphed in it and it has pain and it has hope and it has possibility and has grave, grave disappointment.

And it's going to require all of us to rethink so much.

How do we get to that?

That's the part I struggle with.

I see the potential of it so clearly and we see moments of it.

I think art has shown beautifully what that that new vision can be.

How do we get there?

How do we help people who have so much to lose so feel like they have so much to lose by letting go, come into this, you know, the power of relationships.

Empathy is it's powerful when when we actually reach out and touch somebody.

I did 15 years of prison ministry, eight years of street ministry and call it wasn't an issue at all.

When somebody is hungry, it doesn't matter whether they are races, white supremacy, they don't matter.

You still feed them.

Somebody is cold.

You still, you know, by them alone.

Johnson sucks.

We need to start thinking about someone other than ourselves.

You know, we live in a selfish culture is all about me.

I got to get more, you know, and I'll do whatever it takes to get more.

And that's that's promoted even in our music and art has also played a huge role in getting us to where we are today.

We need to remember that and everyone's traumatized.

No 1 that war.

We are all traumatized, both sides.

You know, if a person is an abuser, the abuser is just as sick as the abuse.

And we never reconciled anything.

So talking is the beginning.

But we need to reach out and tou Thinking about what you just said and then think of wha Isaac said to this idea of this idea of there's always a loser.

It's like, Well, what if we recognize that that doesn't mean that they don't have a story, right?

Like, all stories are valid and we can't just go through into the future only listening to the voice of the people that win.

It has to be the voice of both sides and answering Josiah's question like it has to happen at our table with whoever is at our table, it has to start there and then we expand that table.

We make the table bigger.

You know, it starts in classrooms, it starts in art studios.

It starts in public forums.

It starts with having difficult conversations with the people that you trust.

Most parents, friends, whoever your circle is, you have to start there because that circle will expand And I just keep thinking about the only way this changes is when we're willing to each one of us at our own level choose where we're willing to be vulnerable and then invite other people into that vulnerability and support them.

So as we heal, we offer the next person to heal and be there to love them through that.

And art does that.

Music does that.

Everyone has their own way that we can find that safe space.

And I just making as many safe spaces available as possible.

I think the biggest question about the monuments or the whole idea of monuments coming down or being destroyed or being replaced has to do with that question of respect and being and one being able to respect one's past and one's future.

And what I mean is that a lot of those who wished for the monuments to stay feel that it is a part of their heritage, their lineage, which we can everybody can understand.

Everybody wants to have and celebrate heritage.

Everybody wants to respect the dead.

Everybody wants to respect family members.

But then there's that question of is that or how that was erected, which I think is the biggest question a lot of people have.

Was it really for that intent or was it for other and for another intent?

So having monuments that deal with the dead, the rightful place is not in the middle of a city.

The rightful place is in the cemetery because that is the sacred space to honor once it's taken out from what is known to be sacred and to understand and put into a middle of a city with an intent of damage.

It's no longer a monument for the soldier.

That monument becomes a soldier to guard and to thwart off, which is the biggest question of the monument fight.

So I think we can all say that, yes, we honor and respect and you should have the ability and honor and respect your lineage, your forefathers.

But does that mean that it being used as a weapon for me today or then against people who look like me?

I should continue to honor that.

No, because the place is for it to be in this spot, not this spot, especially when that spot is a city courthouse.

Yes.

Or City Hall, where all of a sudden the message is this isn't yours, right?

You aren't seen here.

You aren't protected here.

You are welcome here.

Right?

And before you noted this, these as being symbols of power, maybe even symbols of war, and if it was once the nation of a few.

Because initially when the first when the first votes were cast by American citizens, it was only 6% of those folks who were over 18 who actual actually able to vote.

And so the idea of we the people was much more narrow but people recognize that they were humans They they were inspired, perhaps even by the word the founding fathers.

I always knew that they themselves were human beings.

And once you construct a constitution which can have amendments.

Well, it's very logical that people will fight to create new amendments.

And if it was once their country and it remains the country, but it's also become our country, then it means we have to negotiate and then we could ask someone or we can fight or we can yell and say that that belongs somewhere, but not at the courthouse.

It belongs somewhere.

But perhaps it should be within a place of other graves, because when you bring out the tomb of a soldier with a weapon it is a symbol to me.

And in the context, as Charlie noted, these were rooted in opposition to the progress which African-Americans and others were making in the context of these United States of America.

And what we've always wanted is merely to be Americans and to ask that the country that the Constitution and its laws actually live up to the ideals that some of you fought for and believe them to be true.

Well, you know, I'm grateful for.

I think we're grateful for this.

I imagine so many ways in which this conversation could go, and this time has exceeded my grand expectations.

So it's been a joy to work with you on this.

Dr. Deardorff And it's been a pleasure to be with each of you today.

And now it is time for us to begin to encounter experienc that will work, that students have brought around these micro monuments and various stories of monuments throughout and within our own community.

Thank you.

Funding for this program is provided by the Community Foundation of Greater Chattanooga.

And Grandview Foundation.