(bright music) - [Alison] This week on "The A-List," I hear from a man who witnessed an event that focused the nation's attention on racial violence.

- We come a long way, got a lot of work to do, but we come a long way, and think about it.

To young Black kids, we have made no progress because racism gonna be here.

What they don't know is our story.

For some reason, we will not tell our story.

History books don't tell our story.

We don't talk about it for some reason.

So young Blacks, they know about racism, surface stuff, but they don't know the stories, the atrocities that their foreparents faced.

I lived it.

- Join me as I talk with the last living witness of the kidnapping of Emmett Till, Elder Wheeler Parker, Jr. Coming up next on "The A-List."

(upbeat music) (somber music) In 1955, 14-year-old Emmett Till was kidnapped in the night and lynched in Mississippi.

His horrific murder ignited outrage nationwide and marked a pivotal point in the civil rights movement.

On the fateful night when Emmett Till was taken from his bed, his 16-year-old cousin Wheeler was in the house with him.

Now the last living witness of that tragic event, Elder Parker has made it his mission to share his story and keep the memory of Emmett Till alive for generations to come.

Elder Parker, welcome to "The A-List."

- Thank you for having me.

- And welcome to Chattanooga.

We're thrilled to be at the McCallie School and thrilled that you were brought in as part of their Mandela Fund Speaker Series, because the story that you bear witness to is critical for this next generation, really for every generation to understand and to hear from you.

Now I wanna talk about the experience.

And since you are the lone survivor of that horrible night and tragic events with Emmett Till, I wanna first understand your relationship with Emmett.

- Emmett's grandmother and my grandmother are sisters.

So we were cousins.

- And you grew up close together?

- Next door, at age seven until he died, we grew up close together.

I moved to Illinois in 1947, January 1st, next door down.

- And you called him Bobo.

- And I can't remember, my auntie knows.

She's still living, she's 97.

She has told me how he got the name Bobo.

- You don't remember?

- I don't remember.

It was something she said.

We just called him Bobo.

It's odd for us to say Emmett, Emmett Till.

It doesn't sound right.

We called him Bobo.

- Now when you went down to Mississippi for those two weeks to visit your grandfather, Emmett didn't just go with you, he went because of you.

- Yes, they didn't want him to go and none of us, it was not a planned trip for either of us.

- So tell me about what happened when he decided to go and what happened when you arrived.

- Well when he found out I was going, because he didn't have any siblings, so when his mother took him places, she took me along.

So we kind of traveled together.

And he learned that I'm going South with my grandfather and he just wouldn't have it any other way.

And they said, "We can't send this boy down."

And he's a prankster and he loves jokes and he paid people to tell him jokes.

Never had a dull day.

We can't let him go South.

The only way they did that is you went with old adults or you was in the hands of an adult while you were there, because they were afraid of what did happen is what they're afraid could happen without proper supervision.

And they protected you.

Unless you were well entrenched in the way of the South, I was well entrenched.

I'm 16 and I spent my first about eight years down there.

And so I knew the mores of the South and I was well entrenched on how to stay alive and healthy and safe.

- I know in your book you say, "I knew that place, and I knew my place in that place."

- Exactly.

- How important was it in the 1950s to know that?

- Very important, if you didn't live in the South, it's hard to understand what we're talking about, if you read that, you say, "What are you talking about, I knew that place?"

We knew that you had no protection in the South once you violated the Southern more, and Southern more could be reckless eyeball or any simple thing that someone didn't like.

because there was no reservation about killing someone because you didn't have to worry about the law because the law would be with you.

And that's what those guys was upset once they took him Emmett.

They said, "That's B.S.

y'all are talking about.

We're protecting our way of life, you gonna arrest me?"

Because this is the first time someone ever been tried for doing something to a Black like that.

And you could be killed and there was no qualms about that.

But they don't want bodies lying all over the place.

So they weighed his body down, And first, when Emett went missing, first place they started looking at the rivers Because they would throw people in the rivers and never survive again.

He should have never been found.

He should have never been seen.

As God would have it, he snagged and his body was bounced, feet was bouncing up and down.

That's how we were able to see him again.

- So let's back up to the day that you arrived.

And I know people often characterize it as a two week vacation where you were having fun, but you were put to work as soon as you got down there.

- There isn't no doubt about it, everybody worked.

And those that didn't work like babies, they took them to the cotton field anyway.

Pulled them on the back of a sack or whatever or laid them at the end of the row as you went up and down picking cotton.

It was cotton picking time and cotton had to be picked, and every available hand was on hand to pick cotton.

- Did Bobo know how to pick cotton the way you knew how to pick?

- No no, I think he lasted one day.

We weren't there but three days before he got in trouble.

It was too hot for him.

And so he started staying home with grandma.

He'd stay at home in the house out in the country.

So he couldn't walk around town for sure.

There's no way that's gonna happen.

- So what happened when you went to Bryant's Grocery?

- We got to Bryant's Grocery on a Wednesday evening dusk.

We got there Sunday, Monday in the cotton field.

So we left cotton field a little bit earlier, I think about dusk.

And so I'm at the store, the people are gathered around.

Others must have left cotton field too.

But anyway, I went into the store and I purchased some things.

And while I'm in there, Emmett comes in, he comes in, I said, "Oh my goodness, I hope he got this."

I know where I'm at.

I know what to do.

I knew the mores, I knew the South.

I said, "I hope he got his yes sirs and no sirs and yes ma'ams together."

That's what I'm concerned about.

So I left him in the store just a short time.

Then my Uncle Simeon came in the store to be with him.

And nothing happened while I was in there.

Nothing happened while.

Hearing a lot of story been told.

My cousin told the story with the eyes on the prize.

He wasn't there at all.

But he told a story and that story resonates.

And one guy told me, that's the story I tell him, I'm gonna keep telling.

I said, "But he was not there."

I was interviewed 30 years later.

So my story got lost, not got lost, it just didn't have no impact.

So 30 years later, I come on and tell my story.

They said, "Wheeler alleged."

I said, "Allege?

I'm an eye witness."

But all those stories about what happened that was told, none of them was there.

And they prevailed, even the journalist report whoever told it.

And it made me question journalism.

It made me question, what can you believe that's written?

What can you believe?

I know this is not the truth, that a look magazine story, really, it bothers me the way they portrayed him.

And it just, so how much can you believe?

- And the discrepancy came in the telling of what happened in the store and his interaction with Carolyn Bryant, who was, I think 21 at the time.

And here's Bobo, who's 14.

I know she claimed he said all sorts of things to her, inappropriate or not.

I think what most people agree about is that as he left the store, he whistled at her.

- That didn't happen that way either.

- Okay, so what did happen?

- And I heard his mother's story.

His mother said he had trouble saying bubble gum with a B.

So she told him to whistle.

She never asked us what happened.

So neither of those are true, that didn't happen.

- The whistle didn't happen.

- Whistle did happen, but whistle happened later when we were out of the store.

- Simeon and Bobo came out, and after a while, Ms. Bryant comes out, she goes to her left and to our right and Emnmett, as he is, loved to make you laugh.

He loved jokes, loved pranks.

He gives her the wolf whistle.

We could have disappeared.

We could have died.

In Mississippi 1955, we just couldn't believe he did that.

And we made a beeline for the car, nobody said "Let's go."

We just knew it's time to go.

And now Emmett is afraid.

He's apprehensive now.

What do I do wrong?

And of course we took off and going on this gravel road and there's a car behind us.

We said, "Man, they're after us, they're after us."

So my uncle sped up and pulls to the side and we jump out of the car and run through the cotton field and regroup.

And Emmett is concerned now because there's a girl there named Ruth.

She said, "I know those people.

This is not over.

You're gonna hear some more from this.

I know those people."

I think she said something about they killed people before.

And I learned that they had killed people before.

So Emmett begged us not to tell my grandfather, we just had been there three days and this has happened, just messing up everything.

So Wednesday passed by and Wednesday night went, we didn't tell my grandfather, Thursday nothing, Friday,nothing.

- Were you nervous though?

- No, we weren't - You figured once that car left, you were fine.

- We know he had violated, and the car wasn't after us and one night passed and we just thought everything's okay.

But she had told us, "You're gonna hear some more."

She said, "This is not over.

I know you're gonna hear some more about this."

We didnt tell my grandfather and he always wondered what it would've been like if we had told him, but we didn't tell him.

- And so that early morning on Sunday when her husband and his half brother arrive at the house, at your grandfather's house at 2:30 in the morning with their flashlight and their gun, you were in that house?

- Yeah, I heard them talking.

I said God, we were very religious people and we were conscientious about being in good standing with God.

There was a lot of weight was put on that.

Said, "God, I'm fixing to die to these people.

He gonna kill us."

We're getting ready to die.

And my relationship, my biggest thing, my relationship is not right with you.

And when you feel death is imminent, it seemed like every bad thing I ever done, what can you do at 16 came to my mind and I said, "God, if you just let me live, I'm gonna get it together.

I'm gonna do what's right."

And I'm serious, I'm making this vow and shaking like literally shaking like a leaf on a tree because I'm gonna be ready to die.

And it's a large former landowner's home.

And as we were having the front porch is screened in bedroom on each side of the house.

My grandfather had no idea.

So look, you got two boys here, they told me we got two boys here, we wanna talk to the one that did the talking, nothing about a whistle, did the talking.

So my grandfather came to my side, he was on one side of the house, and I was on the other.

And I hear him coming and stretching my eyes and no lights on.

And then when the moon doesn't shine, you can't see your hand before your face in the country.

So they came with a pistol in one hand, flashlight in another, I'm shaking like a leaf on a tree.

I closed my eyes to be shot.

And I opened my eyes, they were passing by.

They didn't shoot me.

Went to the next room, they didn't find him, but there they found him in the third bedroom.

And I don't know what they said to him, but he didn't answer right.

And it was pure hell over there, just chaos in the house.

It was a horrible, horrible situation, 2:30 in the morning, Sunday morning that you don't want to experience.

And I'm just shaking, and just have no control because you're so helpless.

It's a very, very helpless situation.

Very helpless.

And you know you can't call the police, you can't call anybody, but my grandfather was there.

I knew my grandfather could not help me.

So they left with him.

And that's the last time I saw him alive.

(somber music) - Nearly 70 years later, Emmett Till's murder is remembered as a tragic injustice that galvanized the civil rights movement and brought about historic change.

For Elder Parker, the horrors of that night remain with him.

And it was 30 years before he shared his story publicly.

In 2023, he released his book, "A Few Days Full of Trouble."

And in doing so, honored the commitment he made to Emmett's mother to carry on the legacy of his cousin and friend.

How does the family not only react, How does the family deal with that sort of tragedy and grief?

- Well, his mother was very upset.

She wanted someone to pay, quite naturally thats her only child.

She was upset about it.

And you been dealt this card.

I think there may have been a little blame that my grandfather lost a child.

I know he had to feel guilty because they entrusted the child with him and he lost the child.

So I know he had some guilt about that.

But that put him in a spot where he had to do whatever he had to do to bring it to trial or whatever.

So that's when he went in the courtroom, he said, "I'm gonna testify."

He said, "I may not live."

He knew he could get killed.

So he went in the court and he pointed them out.

And of course, one night he went home from the trial and couldn't sleep.

So he slept in the cemetery that night.

And the next day they said "White men were around your house all night last night."

He had not planned to leave Mississippi.

He loved Mississippi.

He said, "I'm gonna die here."

But after that incident, he said, "I got to leave."

So he had three sons there, all three of them younger than I.

So wherever we're gonna have to go, and Emmett Till's mother thought she could be killed in the courtroom.

This is the first time that we know of that they're having a trial prosecuting someone for doing something to a Black person.

And the sheriff that went to arrest them, they wouldn't go with them.

So they had to send a high Sheriff.

They called the high Sheriff back after them.

And at every state where we had progress, there was some white person had the fire in their belly to do what's right.

He said, "I'm taking you dead or alive, you might as well, let's go."

So they were highly insulted.

The people didn't care much for them around there.

But like the governor said, they were trash and they were all that, but they were white.

So every lawyer became a defense attorney.

They found a man up outside of the area to prosecute.

And when you see his face and the fear on his face, he said, "I'll do it."

He stood up, he had been in FBI, but he suffered just like, in fact, they'd have state police at his house every night.

And he put his life on the line.

And I talked to his son now, he feel good, said my father did the right thing.

- And how has this story, not just fueled your activism, but really fueled your ministry?

- Well this story, it took off and we couldn't believe it because we didn't talk about that.

Well, Americans saying he got what he deserved.

And Black people, they criminalized us.

They said my grandfather wouldn't let that happen.

You all, I would have took a bullet.

So we can't talk about it.

Nobody's giving us a pat on the back for even telling the story, because the Blacks are saying you should have done something, the whites saying he got what he deserve.

But this story went out and it started changing people.

People were interested.

Slowly but surely, it was being told more.

And theres more people want to hear the story.

But even now, to want me to come, you have to be progressive.

Everybody's not inviting you even now, it's not everybody.

So when you see people do it, well they're kind of progressive.

- Progressive to hear the truth.

- Yeah yeah yeah, wanna know the truth.

They're progressive.

So places I go, I know they got be, it's a different breed of people because there's still attitude, he must have done something.

Yeah, he whistled and he brought, like one kid said, I was teaching, I'm at school now.

He had to get it from his parents, high school he say, "What we talking about Emmett for?

He misbehaved."

But to be beaten like that and shot, you know?

But his attitude, it's a little attitude.

He must have done something.

They just wouldn't do that.

They done it for less than that.

They've killed people for reckless eyeball.

If you didn't live in the South, you had no idea.

In Mississippi at least you could not imagine what it was like if you didn't experience it.

You just couldn't imagine what it was like living under those conditions.

- So how do you reconcile the lack of justice aligned with that?

That while the three, Roy and JW Milam and Carolyn were brought to trial, found not guilty.

Even since then, every effort to try to bring the truth to justice even has been a long, long road.

What is justice for your cousin, for your family look like?

- I think we need to back up and see that there was, as far as that goes, we didn't live under a system where we were gonna ever get justice.

We had no protection.

So even when they had the trial, I mean, we don't expect for them to prosecute these people.

And at my age, you remember the case over in Alabama, not Alabama, Georgia, where this guy, Black guy went into the white neighborhood and these three guys killed him and they gave them some time.

I said if anything, they're not gonna go to jail.

If they give them a lot of time, they're not gonna stay there because I know America, I know the South.

They don't do that.

Not for doing something to a Black person because I've been so deeply ingrained, or what's the proper word, not ingrained, but been so deeply brainwashed, not brainwashed, it's a reality.

You just don't do that for doing something to a Black.

It's like you were rewarded.

JW Milam thought they should have been rewarded.

We're trying to protect the system and you gonna arrest us?

That's some BS you're talking about, I'm not going anywhere.

This boy got out of line.

He misbehaved and he gotta pay price.

We got to keep this system going.

And all over the South say amen, but they did try them.

Course we didn't expect anything out of it, but to have a trial, that was progress because somebody had the fire in the belly they always had some white perso that had the fire in their belly to stand up for you all along the way.

And it went a long way.

It went a long way.

And that's what I tried to say, when you have an opportunity to do what's right, do what's right.

- And this actually galvanized the civil rights movement.

And when you look back on the history of what happened in the South after that, people always look at Emmett Till's murder and say this is what John Lewis, this is what Rosa Parks, this is what Martin Luther King Jr, they referenced that lynching as a pivotal moment for the South to finally change.

- I started hearing that.

We never felt that way.

We never felt that way.

But I started hearing it.

I said, "Okay, we'll accept that" if thats what put the fire in them, fine.

But we never felt that way.

And Martin Luther King in his speech, I think 1963, he said something about Emmett Till.

So I accept it, I go with it,.

But at first, one time, I never thought about it like that.

So if that's what Miss Rosa Parks said that she thought about Emmett Till, she refused to give up her seat.

Heard that later.

And so we go with it.

We roll with that, no problem.

- But as you look at that past and as it fuels today's narrative, do you feel like we've made progress?

- Oh, I know we have.

We come a long way.

Got a lot of work to do.

But we come a long way.

And the thing about it, to young Black kids, we have made no progress because racism gonna be here.

What they don't know is our story.

For some reason, we will not tell our story.

They're trying to stop the Jews from telling the story of the Holocaust to the point some said it never happened.

They said, we're gonna tell it until we die but they keep it out there before you.

We never told our story.

History books don't tell our story.

We don't talk about it for some reason.

So young Blacks, they know about racism surface stuff, but they don't know the stories, atrocities that their foreparents faced.

I lived it, and Emmett Till was just another story.

A lot of people lost their lives and nothing done about it or said about it to any degree, not from the government anyway.

- So what do you want people to remember about Bobo?

- Oh my goodness.

I want them to know him like he was, a fun-loving guy, never had a dull day in his life.

Not the way you guys try to portray him as a monster.

Oh my goodness.

He would've been a leader if he had lived.

And he enjoyed life, and life was cut short.

Because normally when we sent kids South, and they did in droves back in the day, but they were in the hands of an adult.

They were in the hands of older people who went to the stores in town.

We would always chaperone.

They could be there in case kids from the North didn't say yes sir or no sir to deal with it, Emmett didn't have that.

- Well, we're so grateful for you and for sharing the truth about that evening, the truth about that experience, the truth about Emmett Till.

- Thank you for having me and hope I said something to help your audience.

- Amen.

- All right.

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