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JEFFREY: THE WAR PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID WOULD LAST JUST WEEKS IS NOW IN ITS SIXTH MONTH -- AND EXPANDING.

WHY IS THE U.S.

STILL FIGHTING IRAN, AND TO WHAT END?

STRAIGHT ANSWERS ARE HARD TO COME BY -- THE ADMINISTRATION WON'T EVEN PROVIDE ACCURATE CASUALTY FIGURES.

TRUST IN GOVERNMENT HAS DECLINED RAPIDLY IN RECENT YEARS, AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS COLLAPSE ARE EVERYWHERE.

TONIGHT, IN AN AGE OF POISONOUS PARTISANSHIP AND SOCIAL MEDIA CLIPMAXXING, WHO CAN YOU BELIEVE?

NEXT.

>> THIS IS WASHINGTON WEEK WITH OF THE ATLANTIC.

A CORPORATE FUNDING PROVIDED BY -- >> IN 1995, TWO FRIENDS SET OUT TO MAKE WIRELESS COVERAGE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL.

WITH NO LONG-TERM CONTRACTS, NATIONWIDE COVERAGE AND 100% U.S.-BASED CUSTOMER SUPPORT.

CONSUMER CELLULAR.

FREEDOM CALLS.

>> ADDITIONAL FUNDING IS PROVIDED BY THE YUEN FOUNDATION, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

SANDRA AND CARL DELAY-MAGNUSON.

ROSE HIRSCHEL AND ANDY SHREEVES.

ROBERT AND SUSAN ROSENBAUM.

JAY AND SHARON ROCKEFELLER.

CHARLES HAMOWY THROUGH THE CHARLES HAMOWY FUND.

STEVE AND MARILYN KERMAN.

LEONARD AND NORMA KLORFINE.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

ONCE AGAIN, FROM THE DAVID AND RUBENSTEIN STUDIO AT WETA IN WASHINGTON, EDITOR IN CHIEF OF THE ATLANTIC AND MODERATOR, JEFFREY GOLDBERG.

JEFFREY: GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO WASHINGTON WEEK.

REMEMBER CONGRESSMAN TOM KEAN, THE ONE WHO DISAPPEARED FROM WASHINGTON FOR ALMOST 4 MONTHS, WITH NO EXPLANATION?

IT TURNED OUT HE WAS SUFFERING FROM DEPRESSION.

EVERYONE SHOULD BE GLAD THAT HE SOUGHT TREATMENT, BUT HIS DISAPPEARANCE, WITHOUT TELLING HIS CONSTITUENTS ANYTHING?

ONLY IN WASHINGTON.

AND THEN THERE'S MITCH MCCONNELL, SCHRODINGER'S SENATOR, WHO HASN'T LEVELED WITH HIS CONSTITUENTS, OR POSSIBLY ANYONE ELSE, ABOUT THE TRUE STATE OF HIS HEALTH.

THE MCCONNELL STORY REMINDS ME OF ANOTHER POLITICIAN, JOE BIDEN, WHO MADE BELIEVE HE HAD ANOTHER FOUR YEARS OF PUBLIC LIFE IN HIM EVEN AFTER IT BECAME STUNNINGLY CLEAR THAT HE DIDN'T.

I RAISE THESE INCIDENTS BECAUSE THEY ILLUSTRATE A SAD FACT OF POLITICAL LIFE TODAY -- ONLY A SMALL NUMBER OF POLITICIANS SEEM CAPABLE OF LEVELING WITH THEIR FELLOW AMERICANS.

THE BEST EXAMPLE OF THIS, OF COURSE, IS THE MOST POWERFUL POLITICIAN OF THEM ALL, DONALD TRUMP, WHO CAN'T FIND IT IN HIMSELF TO BE TRANSPARENT WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT THE STATE OF THE WAR WITH IRAN, OR ABOUT MUCH ELSE.

MAYBE MY MIND IS PLAYING TRICKS ON ME, BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT WE USED TO HOLD PUBLIC SERVANTS TO A HIGHER STANDARD.

HERE TO TELL ME I'M RIGHT ABOUT THAT, OR WRONG, ARE MY GUESTS TONIGHT: PETER BAKER, THE CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT AT THE NEW YORK TIMES.

SUSAN GLASSER IS A STAFF WRITER FOR THE NEW YORKER.

STEPHEN HAYES IS THE EDITOR AND CEO OF THE DISPATCH.

AND NANCY YOUSSEF IS A STAFF WRITER AND PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT AT THE ATLANTIC.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME.

PETER, HOW RIGHT AM I?

PETER: YOU ARE SO RIGHT.

JEFFREY: VERY RIGHT OR THE MOST RIGHT?

I JUST WANTED TO CHECK.

[LAUGHTER] LET ME START WITH PETER.

IT IS VERY HARD TO UNDERSTAND THE IRAN WAR AT THE MOMENT.

BOTH GOVERNMENTS SEEM TO THINK THE OTHER GOVERNMENT IS ESCALATING.

AND TRUMP HIMSELF SAID THIS WEEK ACCORDING TO FOX NEWS THAT THE U.S.

WOULD BEAT THE F-IN -- OUT OF THEM.

I WILL NOT FOR THE RECORD THIS IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER ON BROADCAST TELEVISION WE CAN USE WORDS THAT ARE BANNED BY THE FCC, EVEN IF THEY ARE SPOKEN BY THE PERSON WHO OVERSEES AND APPOINTS THE FCC.

THAT WILL BE A PANEL DISCUSSION AT COLUMBIA JOURNALISM STARTING THIS FALL.

BUT HE HAS THREATENED ONCE AGAIN TO BEAT THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS OUT OF IRAN, BUT AT A CERTAIN POINT THESE THREATS SEEM HOLLOW.

HE’S BEEN MAKING A LOT OF THREATS, BUT NOTHING HAPPENS.

PETER: HE DOES NOT WANT TO GET BACK TO THE FULL-SCALE WAR HE HAD IN THE BEGINNING, THE 40 DAYS OF BOMBING AND STRIKES.

FOR A COUPLE REASONS.

ONE, THEY DID NOT CHANGE IRAN’S CALCULUS TO BEGIN WITH.

SECONDLY, IT THROUGH THE WORLD ECONOMY INTO A PEOPLE.

AND THIRDLY WE ARE HEADING INTO AN ELECTION SEASON WHERE PEOPLE DON’T WANT TO BE TALKING ABOUT THE IRAN WAR.

HE DOES NOT WANT TO REMIND THEM OF IT BY HAVING A MORE ROBUST ASSAULT.

SO HE MAKES THESE BIG THREATS.

HE HAS NOT FOLLOWED THROUGH ON THEM.

IT IS NOT CLEAR THAT ANYTHING HE CAN DO AT THIS POINT WILL CHANGE IRAN’S CALCULATION.

THEY ALREADY CAME TO A CONCLUSION ABOUT HOW THIS IS GOING AND IT IS NOT THE WAY DONALD TRUMP THINKS.

JEFFREY: THIS IS THE NATURE OF DETERRENCE, IT ONLY WORKS IF YOU DON’T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING.

ONCE YOU SHOW YOUR ENEMY WHAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF DOING, OR NOT CAPABLE OF DOING, THE DETERRENT THREAT DISSIPATES?

SUSAN: THAT’S EXACTLY RIGHT.

FOR LITERALLY 15 YEARS I REMEMBER GREAT PIECES YOU WOULD WRITE A LONG TIME AGO DURING THE PRESIDENCY OF GEORGE W. BUSH, BARACK OBAMA, IT WAS THE THREAT OF AMERICAN MILITARY ACTION AGAINST IRAN THAT OPERATED AS A CONSTRAINT, LIMITED THOUGH IT HAVE MAY HAVE BEEN, AGAINST THE IRAN GOVERNMENT.

NOW THAT IS DISSIPATED.

YOU CAN ARGUE WHILE FEARING THE CONSEQUENT IS OF A POTENTIAL IRANIAN NUCLEAR BOMB, WHAT HAS EMERGED IS THE PRESENT DAY ACTUALITY OF SOMETHING MORE GEOPOLITICALLY POWERFUL THAN THE IRANIANS COULD’VE IMAGINED, THE LEVERAGING OF THEIR CONTROL OVER THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

PUT ASIDE THE QUESTION OF A THEORETICAL FUTURE NUCLEAR IRAN.

WHAT THEY HAVE IS NUCLEAR CAPACITY IN A WAY TO BLOW UP THE GLOBAL ECONOMY AT WILL, AND DONALD TRUMP HAS SHOWN THEM THE PATH FORWARD TO IT.

SO THE IDEA THAT THEY WILL NEGOTIATE THAT AWAY AFTER ESSENTIALLY FIGHTING THE WORLD’S GREATEST SUPERPOWER TO WITHDRAW, VERY UNREALISTIC, WHICH IS WHY I THINK WE SEE THIS ON AGAIN OFF AGAIN CONFLICT WITH NO REAL PROSPECT OF MEANINGFUL NEGOTIATED END.

JEFFREY: THIS IS A REGIONAL CONFLAGRATION NOW, YEAH?

STEPHEN: IT IS RIGHT NOW.

THE CONCERN HAS TO BE THAT IT GROWS TO SOMETHING MORE THAN THAT.

WE HAVE INCREASING REPORTS OVER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS OF CHINESE SUPPORT FOR IRAN PROVIDING POTENTIALLY 400 MISSILES TO IRAN.

YOU HAD CREDIBLE REPORTING OF THE RUSSIANS PROVIDING MORE INTELLIGENCE ABOUT THE TARGETING OF U.S.

INTELLIGENCE FACILITIES IN THE REGION.

YOU HAVE OUR ALLIES IN THE REGION GETTING INVOLVED IN A MORE OFFENSIVE WAY.

FOR A LONG TIME IT HAS BEEN AS MUCH OF A DISASTER AS IT HAS BEEN -- IT IS COMFORTING TO THINK HE’S JUST GOING TO WALK AWAY AT SOME POINT.

YES, THINGS ARE LIKELY TO BE WORSE THAN THEY WERE BEFORE FOR THE REASONS SUSAN SUGGESTS, BUT IT CAN END.

NOW YOU THINK, IF YOU ARE RUSSIA, CHINA, YOUR INTEREST IS IN THIS BEING ELONGATED.

JEFFREY: THE UNITED STATES IS BOGGED DOWN IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD.

AS LONG AS THEY ARE BOGGED DOWN, THEY ARE NOT MESSING WITH OUR OWN INTERESTS.

STEPHEN: RIGHT.

AND THE ALLIES IN THE REGION ARE LOOKING AT OUR INCAPABILITY OF MAKING PROGRESS TO CHANGE THE TRAJECTORY OF THE WAR AND THINKING THEY TOO MIGHT HAVE TO BE MORE INVOLVED.

JEFFREY: THERE IS A MERGER IN SOME WAY OF DIFFERENT WARS.

YOU HAVE THE UKRAINIANS ATTACKING IRANIAN SHIPS THAT ARE MOVING WEAPONS TO RUSSIA.

EXPLAIN THAT.

IT IS A MERGER OF DIFFERENT FIELDS OF BATTLE.

STEPHEN: I CAN’T EXPLAIN IT IN ANY DETAIL.

I WOULD DEFER TO NANCY ON WHAT IT MEANS.

BUT THE FACT THAT THESE THINGS ARE COMING TOGETHER IN THIS WAY OVER THE PAST WEEKS, EVEN AS THE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S.

HAS DEMONSTRATED HE’S NOT THAT INTERESTED ANYMORE.

THERE IS CREDIBLE REPORTING THAT HE’S GETTING BORED.

HE’S FRUSTRATED THAT THERE ARE NO EASY PATHS TO VICTORY FOR THE UNITED STATES.

JEFFREY: I WILL ASK YOU WHAT THAT MEANS IN A MOMENT, BUT I WANT TO READ SOMETHING YOU AND JONATHAN WROTE THE OTHER DAY.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATIONS GREATEST MISTAKE AND THE IRAN WAR MAY BE ITS PERSISTENT FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND TEHRAN’S PRIORITIES AND HOW MUCH PUNISHMENT THE REGIME IS WILLING TO ABSORB TO PREVAIL.

IRAN’S DECISION TO STAY TO LUNCH BALLISTIC MISSILES AT U.S.

TROOPS IN JORDAN WAS A PRIME EXAMPLE, IT BEFUDDLED WASHINGTON.

HE OFFICIALS HAVE COME TO EXPECT THEIR ACTIONS WOULD DRIVE THE W AR IN IRAN TO ACT.

SOUNDS LIKE YOU THINK IRAN HAS THE UPPER HAND RIGHT NOW.

NANCY: AS WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING, THE ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN LURCHING BETWEEN ECONOMIC, DIPLOMATIC AND MILITARY RESPONSES TO IRAN.

THEY ARE FACING AN ADVERSARY THAT SEES THIS WAR AS A VERY THREAT TO ITS EXISTENCE.

THE IRANIAN REGIME IS WILLING TO TAKE ESCALATION, IT IS WILLING TO DO WHATEVER IT NEEDS TO SURVIVE.

AND SO THAT GAP BETWEEN THE U.S.

AIMS AND IRANIAN AIMS MEANS THAT IRAN IS WILLING TO DO MUCH MORE, AND ENDURE MUCH MORE THAN THE UNITED STATES.

THE FACT THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS SURPRISED BY THE IRANIAN DECISION TO LAUNCH BALLISTIC MISSILES AT A BASE HOUSING U.S.

FORCES TELLS ME THE U.S.

DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE KIND OF ADVERSARY THEY ARE FACING IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY ARE WILLING TO ENDURE TO PREVAIL, WHICH IS IN THIS CASE VERY SURVIVAL.

THE U.S.

IS TRYING TO DO JUST ENOUGH SUCH THAT THE STRAIT REMAINS OPEN AND IT CAN CLAIM SOME SORT OF OFFRAMP TO GET OUT OF THIS WAR, IDEALLY BEFORE THE NOVEMBER ELECTION.

JEFFREY: IN OTHER WORDS, ONE OF THE CONVERSATIONS THAT MAY NOT HAVE HAPPENED IN THE WHITE HOUSE IN FEBRUARY OR BEFORE WAS HOW MUCH WILL WE ESCALATE?

HOW HIGH ON THE ESCALATORY LADDER WILL WE GO VERSUS THE IRANIANS?

THE IRANIANS WILL GO ALL THE WAY.

PRESIDENT TRUMP WON’T EVEN COMMIT TROOPS.

SUSAN: YOU ARE DEALING WITH AN ENEMY THAT IS ADAPTING TO U.S.

TACTICS.

YOU HAVE A REGIME THAT OPERATES DIFFERENTLY THAN THE ONE BEFORE IT.

IT IS WILLING TO TAKE MORE RISKS THAN UNDER THE PREVIOUS AYATOLLAH.

AND WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT IN THE UNITED STATES THAT DOES NOT EVEN WANT TO ADMIT THAT WE ARE BACK AT WAR.

THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AND CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF WENT ON CAPITOL HILL ASKING FOR BILLIONS OF DOLLARS MORE TO FUND THE WAR.

IN THEIR OPENING STATEMENT THEY DID NOT EVEN USE THE WORD IRAN.

HEGSETH DESCRIBED THIS AS AN OPERATION.

PRESIDENT ADDRESSED THE COUNTRY IN A NATIONAL ADDRESS DURING THIS PERIOD.

THIS WAS NOT ABOUT THE WAR, THIS WAS ABOUT ELECTION SECURITY AND ONLY MADE A PASSING REFERENCE TO THE WAR.

AND THE FACT THAT WE ARE CATEGORIZING THE RESUMPTION OF THESE STRIKES AS SOMETHING OTHER THAN IN SUPPORT OF OPERATION OF EPIC FURY IS PART OF THIS EFFORT TO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THE U.S.

IS BACK AT A MILITARY CAMPAIGN MINIMALLY AGAINST IRAN.

>> I WOULD ADD THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID FROM THE EARLIEST DAYS OF THE CONFLICT THAT THE U.S.

HAS ALREADY WON.

HE SAID IT REPEATEDLY AGAIN AND AGAIN.

IF YOU REMEMBER WHEN HE SIGNED THE MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING TO THE APPLAUSE OF EUROPEAN YEARS -- OF EUROPEAN LEADERS IN VERSAILLES.

JEFFREY: I LOVE THAT, IN VERSAILLES.

SUCH A HISTORICAL ECHO.

>> AT THE VERY END, HE SAYS OIL DOWN, STOCKS UP.

HE’S ANNOUNCING TO THE IRANIANS AND TO THE WORLD, HE’S DONE, HE DOES NOT WANT THIS ANYMORE, IN ADDITION TO ALL THE THINGS NANCY SAID.

JEFFREY: THIS GOES TO THAT POINT I WAS MAKING ABOUT TRUST IN LEADERSHIP.

GIVE US A LITTLE HISTORICAL CONTEXT.

CAN YOU THINK OF ANOTHER PRESIDENCY GOING BACK TO VIETNAM OR EARLIER IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF WAS NOT LEVELING WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF A WAR IN THIS STYLE?

I DON’T FEEL LIKE HE’S TELLING US WHY HE DID IT, WHAT HE WILL DO TO WIN.

PETER: THERE ARE OTHER PRESIDENTS WHO HAVE LIED TO US ABOUT WAR.

YOU TALK ABOUT VIETNAM.

GO BACK AND READ THE PENTAGON PAPERS.

YOU SEE PRESIDENT AFTER PRESIDENT WHO WAS NOT FORTHCOMING WITH THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

THIS IS DIFFERENT IN THAT THIS WAS A WAR THAT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC NEVER SUPPORTED TO BEGIN WITH, AND THE PRESIDENT NEVER BOTHERED.

JEFFREY: VIETNAM WAS POPULAR.

PETER: BOTH JFK AND LBJ EXPLAINED WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE WORLD THAT MADE THAT MATTER.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NEVER DONE THAT.

HE JUST HAD THAT SPEECH, IT IS NOT ABOUT WAR BUT HIS OWN OBSESSION WITH THE 2020 ELECTION.

THIS WAR STARTED OUT WITH MORE PEOPLE AGAINST IT THAN FOR IT, WHICH IS THE ONLY TIME IN OUR HISTORY OF POLLING THAT HAS HAPPENED.

AND IT’S ONLY GONE DOWN SINCE THEN.

IT SEEMS LIKE HE’S MADE NO EFFORT TO WIN PEOPLE OVER.

HE’S NOW NARROWED HIS GOALS, WHICH WERE SCATTERED SHOT IN THE BEGINNING, REOPENED THE STRAIT, NO NUCLEAR WEAPON.

THAT WORKS I THINK FOR THE PUBLIC.

PEOPLE ON THE STREET SAY I DON’T WANT IRAN TO HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

BUT HE HAS NOT DONE ANYTHING TO SAY WHY IT HAD TO BE DONE NOW AND WHAT WE WILL DO ABOUT IN THE FUTURE.

>> HE’S ALSO NOT DOING ANYTHING RIGHT NOW AS FAR AS WE CAN TELL.

THEY ARE EXTREMELY UN- TRANSPARENT ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING.

HE DOES NOT SEEM TO BE PURSUING MILITARILY ANYTHING THAT WOULD ENSURE THAT IRAN WAS DENUCLEARIZE IN THE FUTURE.

THE POINT THAT OUT IS IMPORTANT.

THIS REMINDS ME IN THIS ALMOST ORWELLIAN INVERSION OF LANGUAGE, THE DEGRADING OF THOSE SERVICE MEMBERS WHO DID GIVE THEIR LIVES FOR A WAR THAT TRUMP LAUNCHED ON HIS OWN WITH NO MANDATE FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

THERE IS ANOTHER SUPERPOWER ENGAGED IN ASYMMETRICAL CONFLICT RIGHT NOW THAT IS CALLED A SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION, WHERE YEARS INTO THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO LAST A FEW DAYS, A COUPLE WEEKS AT A MAXIMUM, AND LETTERMAN PUTIN ALSO REFUSES TO FALL TO WAR.

HE ALSO GOVERNS IN HIS OWN NAME AND NOT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE OR INSTITUTIONS.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN FROM THE UKRAINIANS IS A PLAYBOOK FOR THE FUTURE OF MILITARY CONFLICT THAT IS ALREADY HERE.

THAT IS WHAT IS SO STRIKING, WE HAVE SEEN NOT JUST OUR PRESIDENTIAL AND POLITICAL SYSTEM THAT HAS FAILED TO ACCOUNT FOR THIS, BUT ALSO A NATIONAL SECURITY ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH THE LEADERS OF THE PENTAGON, EVEN WITH ASKING FOR MORE THAN $1 TRILLION THIS YEAR, SEEM VERY UNPREPARED FOR THIS KIND OF RAPID WARFARE WHERE CHEAP DRONES ARE NO MATCH FOR OUR PATRIOT MISSILES.

JEFFREY: WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS ESCALATORY CAPABILITY OR WILLINGNESS AS THE KEY VARIABLE FOR ALL OF THESE CONFLICTS, WHICH IS TO SAY UKRAINE IS IN A FIGHT FOR ITS EXISTENCE.

IT WILL DO WHATEVER THEY HAVE TO DO TO EXIST.

THE IRANIAN REGIME, WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, AND WE GENERALLY DON’T LIKE IT FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, THE IRANIAN REGIME WANTS TO SAVE ITSELF.

HERE IN AMERICA WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT GAS PRICES.

UKRAINIANS WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THE LUXURY OF WORRYING ABOUT PRICE OF GASOLINE AT THE PUMP.

THERE’S ANOTHER ASPECT, ANOTHER VARIABLE THAT I FIND FASCINATING AT THIS MOMENT, WHICH IS THE LACK OF PLANNING IN WAR FIGHTING.

ONE OF THE MOST SURPRISING ASPECTS OF EVERYTHING THAT I’VE BEEN SEEING IS WE HAD A WAR OF CHOICE.

WE PICKED THE TIMING OF THIS WAR.

AND WE DIDN’T PLAN FOR THE REDUCTION THAT WOULD COME IN MUNITION STOCKPILES, AND NOW WE ARE A LITTLE BIT NAKED BEFORE THE WORLD AND OTHER ADVERSARIES, BECAUSE WE SIMPLY DON’T HAVE ENOUGH DEFENSIVE MISSILES, ENOUGH TO PROTECT AMERICA AND ITS ALLIES FROM OTHER ADVERSARIES.

STEPHEN: ON THE PATH TO BE ALARMINGLY NAKED IF THIS WAR WERE TO CONTINUE.

THIS IS A PROBLEM WHEN YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHO MAKES THESE DECISIONS OUT OF STRATEGIC CONSIDERATIONS, BUT EMOTIONAL IMPULSE.

.

I THINK HE WANTED TO BE STRONG, TO DO IN IRAN WHAT HE DID IN VENEZUELA.

HE LIKED THE UNDULATION HE GOT FROM THE JUNE 2025 STRIKES WHEN HE HIT THE NUCLEAR FACILITIES IN IRAN.

THAT IS THE REASON HE MAKES THESE DECISIONS.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DID PLANNING IN ADVANCE OF THIS.

VERY SERIOUS PEOPLE, PATRIOTS WHO DID THIS PLANET.

UNFORTUNATELY IT WAS DISREGARDED BY THE PERSON WHO MATTERS MOST, THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF.

JEFFREY: DIFFICULT QUESTION, BUT WHAT WOULD THE UNITED STATES HAVE TO DO TO WIN IN IRAN?

NANCY: HOW ARE YOU DEFINING WINNING?

JEFFREY: YOU DEFINE IT.

THAT IS WHY YOU GET PAID THE MODERATE BUCK.

[LAUGHTER] NANCY: THERE ARE NOT GREAT OPTIONS FOR THE PRESIDENT.

ONE OPTION WOULD BE TO DECLARE VICTORY AGAIN, SAY THAT THE AYATOLLAH IS DEAD, IRAN DOES NOT HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON AND THE U.S.

WILL COME BACK AT IRAN SHOULD THEY TRY TO GET A NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAIN, IN HIS ESTIMATION.

THE QUESTION BECOMES, WILL THE STOCK MARKET AND PRICE THAT THINKING, PARTICULARLY WHEN IRAN CONTROLS THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ?

HE COULD CONTINUE TO ESCALATE SUCH THAT HE BELIEVES HE REACHES A POINT, AND HE SIGNALED IN HIS COMMENTS EARLIER TODAY AND THE CABINET MEETING THAT HE CAN KEEP ESCALATING TO THE POINT THAT EITHER THE REGIME -- IT TIPS THE REGIME OUT OF POWER OR BECOMES AN INTOLERABLE LEVEL OF DESTRUCTION FOR THEM THAT THEY START TO CAPITULATE.

HE COULD CONTINUE TO DO ECONOMIC SANCTIONS OR TRY TO COME BACK TO THE NEGOTIATION TABLE, BUT IN DOING SO WOULD HAVE TO MAKE SOME KIND OF CONCESSION TO THE IRANIANS IN TERMS OF HOW THEY READ THAT MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING VIS-A-VIS THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

I DON’T KNOW WHAT WINNING IS, BUT I DON’T KNOW WHAT IS A VIABLE OPTION THAT CREATES AN EXIT RAMP FOR HIM TO DECLARE SOME KIND OF VICTORY.

JEFFREY: LET ME GIVE YOU A TRADITIONAL DEFINITION OF WINNING IN THIS CONTEXT, WHICH WOULD BE DEFEATING THE IRANIAN REGIME, SEEKING ITS OVERTHROW BY WESTERN MINDED IRANIAN DEMOCRATS.

COULD THAT BE DONE WITHOUT LARGE NUMBERS OF TROOPS ON THE GROUND?

COULD IT BE DONE WITH TROOPS ON THE GROUND?

NANCY: MAYBE.

IT IS UNCERTAIN.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A COUNTRY OF 90 MILLION PEOPLE.

AS LONG AS THE U.S.

HAS BEEN DISCUSSING WAR WITH IRAN, THE IRANIANS HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF COMING UNDER THREAT BY THE UNITED STATES.

IT WOULD REQUIRE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TROOPS IN MAJOR U.S.

MILITARY COMMITMENT AND A COMMITMENT TO ENDURE ECONOMIC COSTS THROUGH THAT TIME FOR SOMETHING THAT WOULD TAKE MONTHS OR YEARS, IF THAT’S THE END STATE.

JEFFREY: LET ME SWITCH TOPICS AND GO TO ANOTHER WAR IN WASHINGTON, A MINOR WAR BY COMPARISON.

IT IS ALSO AN EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING WHERE POLITICIANS AND NOBODY SEEMS TO BE ON THE LEVEL.

THAT IS THE RAND PAUL, AND DEATHMATCH.

THERE ARE A COUPLE ISSUES TO IMPACT, THE FAUCI DIARY, AND THE ACTUAL REASONS FAUCI WAS BROUGHT BEFORE THE SENATE.

HERE IS WHAT FAUCI SAID ABOUT THE HEARING.

>> GIVEN SENATOR PAUL’S OBVIOUS OBSESSION WITH CALLING FOR MY PROSECUTION, HIS REPEATED SLANDEROUS COMMENTS ABOUT ME AND RECENTLY HIS PUBLICLY RELEASING MY UNREDACTED PERSONAL DIARY AIMED AT EMBARRASSING AND INTIMIDATING ME, THE ONLY CONCLUSION I CAN REACH IS THAT THE SOLE REASON HE IS CALLING ME BEFORE THIS COMMITTEE IS TO GET ME TO SAY SOMETHING, ANYTHING THAT COULD VINDICATE HIS REPEATED PUBLIC PLEDGES THAT I END UP, IN HIS WORDS, "BEHIND BARS."

JEFFREY: IN THE FEW MINUTES WE HAVE LEFT, TAKE US INSIDE THIS.

WHAT IS THE MOTIVATION OF SENATOR PAUL?

HOW DO YOU JUDGE ANTHONY FAUCI’S RESPONSE TO THESE ATTACKS MADE ON HIM?

STEPHEN: THE HEARING WASN’T SUCH A PERFECT ENCAPSULATION OF WASHINGTON AT THIS MOMENT -- WAS SUCH A PERFECT ENCAPSULATION OF WASHINGTON AT THIS MOMENT OF YELLING AND NOTHING THAT GETS US CLOSER TO THE TRUTH.

AND IS RIGHT THAT SENATOR PAUL HAS BEEN OBSESSED.

SENATOR PAUL IS RIGHT THAT ANTHONY FOUND SHE TOOK SHORTCUTS AND --FAUCI TOOK SHORTCUTS AND LIED ABOUT THINGS.

WITH A MORE SERIOUS GOVERNMENT WE WOULD’VE GOTTEN CLOSER TO ANSWERS.

WE PROBABLY DON’T DO THIS OFTEN ENOUGH, SENATOR LANKFORD FROM OKLAHOMA, HE WAS NOT GOING TO GET ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS.

ANTHONY FAUCI ALREADY SAID HE WOULD NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS.

BUT HE WALKED THROUGH IN A CALM AND DISPASSIONATE WAY A SERIES OF QUESTIONS.

HE WAS UNFORTUNATELY THE PERSON WHO STOOD OUT BECAUSE HE WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO DID THIS.

EVERYONE ELSE WAS YELLING AND SHOUTING.

JEFFREY: IN THE OLD DAYS, LESS DYSFUNCTIONAL WASHINGTON, MAY BE PEOPLE WOULD GATHER TO DO A POSTMORTEM OF A TRAGIC EVENT AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT BETTER GOVERNMENT RESPONSE.

THIS IS A BIT OF A SHOW RIGHT NOW.

WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT WHERE WE ARE POLITICALLY AND IN PARTISANSHIP?

SUSAN: THE HISTORICAL ANALOGY THAT LEAPS TO MIND IS NOT A REASONABLE BIPARTISAN COMMISSION TO LOOK AT LESSONS LEARNED FROM A NATIONAL TRAGEDY, IT IS A WITCH HUNT, IT’S MCCARTHYISM.

WE DO UNFORTUNATELY HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF THAT AS WELL.

TO SEE AN 85-YEAR-OLD PUBLIC SERVANT WHO SPENT 50 YEARS OF HIS LIFE COMBATING TERRIBLE DISEASES IN THIS COUNTRY AND AROUND THE WORLD, IT WAS A PAINF UL SIGHT, ESPECIALLY TO SEE A BUNCH OF SENATORS ACCUSE FAUCI OF THE BEST THEY COULD COME UP WITH WAS A DIARY IN WHICH HE WAS DAZZLED TO MEET CELEBRITIES AND ADMITTED THAT HE BUTT DIALED BARBRA STREISAND.

IF JOSH HAWLEY IS SAYING YOU ARE A PEACOCK AND A NARCISSIST, I THINK -- JEFFREY: ARE YOU SAYING NO ONE IN THE SENATE SHOULD ACCUSE ANYONE OF BEING A PEACOCK?

SUSAN: I FOUND IT PAINFUL TO WATCH.

THE PERSON WHO WAS ACCOUNTABLE ULTIMATELY FOR AMERICA’S FAILED INITIAL HANDLING OF THE PANDEMIC IN 2020 WAS SOMEONE MADE DONALD TRUMP -- NAMED DONALD TRUMP.

JEFFREY: IN THE DIARY, FAUCI TALKS WITH NUANCE AND UNCERTAINTY ABOUT THE ORIGIN STORY OF COVID-19.

IN PUBLIC, ESPECIALLY IN THE BEGINNING, HE WAS MORE DECLARATIVE.

THIS IS NOT THE PENTAGON PAPERS, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF SPACE BETWEEN WHAT HE WOULD TELL THE PUBLIC AND WHAT HE WOULD TELL HIMSELF.

STEPHEN: YES AND NO.

IN THOSE EARLY DAYS WHERE WE DID NOT KNOW WILL NOT, SCIENTISTS WERE OF MULTIPLE OPINIONS ABOUT HOW IT WAS TRANSMITTED AND WHAT THE BEST COURSE OF ACTION WAS.

AND YES, HE PROBABLY PROJECTED MORE CERTAINTY THAN HE MIGHT HAVE FELT, BUT IF YOU CAN FIND STATEMENTS HE SAID IN THE DIARY AND SEE HE SAID SOMETHING SIMILAR IN AN INTERVIEW WEEKS LATER, SO I THINK THEY ARE TRYING TO SLICE AND DICE IT IN A WAY THAT IS MAKING UNCERTAINTY IN THE BEGINNING OF A PANDEMIC INTO A CRIME.

IT IS NOT JUST THAT HE IS WRONG, IT’S THAT HE’S EVIL AND SHOULD GO TO JAIL.

HE IS COMPARED TO HITLER.

THIS IS NOT A SCIENTIST WHO GOT THINGS WRONG, IN RAND PAUL’S WORLD IT IS GOOD AND EVIL.

JEFFREY: VERY INTERESTING CONVERSATION.

THAT IS ALL THE TIME WE HAVE TONIGHT, ALAS.

I WANT TO THANK OUR GUESTS FOR JOINING ME AND THANK YOU AT HOME FOR WATCHING US.

I’M JEFFREY GOLDBERG.

GOODNIGHT FROM WASHINGTON.

>> CORPORATE FUNDING FOR WASHINGTON WEEK WITH THE ATLANTIC IS PROVIDED BY -- CONSUMER CELLULAR.

ADDITIONAL FUNDING IS PROVIDED BY KOO & PATRICIA YUEN WITH THE YUEN FOUNDATION COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

SANDRA AND CARL DELAY-MAGNUSON, ROSE HIRSCHEL AND ANDY SHREEVES, ROBERT AND SUSAN ROSENBAUM, J AND SHARON ROCKEFELLER.

CHARLES HAMOWY THROUGH THE CHARLES HAMOWY FUND, STEVE AND MARILYN KERMAN, LEONARD AND NORMA KLORFINE AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

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